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Hi Javier! July 5, 2022 @ If you have received a Parking ticket on your car from ORA in Benidorm for overstaying or parking without a ticket then you can either pay the excess on the machine (within 30mins of the ticket being issued) or in office details . I am a student from the UK who is doing a paid internship in Spain as part of a university year abroad. fines for overstaying in spain. In other words, you have a permission to stay around the Schengen area for up to 90 days every 180 days without applying for any visa (as an US citizen). February 21, 2022 @ We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Spain: New beach rules could land tourists with 2,500 fines SUBSCRIBE Invalid email We use your sign-up to provide content in ways you've consented to and to improve our understanding of you. August 15, 2022 @ Contact us regarding your consultation and we will get back to you as soon as possible. from dust we come to dust we return quran. . I accidentally stayed in Spain for 93 days before leaving to go back to the UK, where Im from. Kind Regards, We reapplied for the visa, and while waiting for it I left Spain in September 2022 for a holiday back in Australia. If you are waiting for a pending resolution from the foreigners office, you are allowed to stay in Spain until you get such a resolution. Is it possible that I can exit the country without paying fines? The rule comes as a blow to the thousands of British citizens with holiday homes in Spain, particularly those who flew out to the country over Christmas and have been stranded on Spanish soil ever since. Javier Rodrguez Javier R. Mohammed Awal Iddrisu Overstay caused by travel restrictions. An extension beyond the allowed 90-day stay for non-residents is only granted in the event of ill health or accident, but is not guaranteed. Or will going outside of the Schengen area cause issues? It should be ok, but at the same time it will depend on the residency application you are applying for. October 29, 2021 @ (M) (M) allied health student placement melbourne . The foreigners office will not mind if you overstayed in Spain to be honest, as soon as you are entitled to apply for a valid residence permit (as you are). February 16, 2022 @ Have you discovered that the simplest of transactions are difficult to conclude? Then with not having the jab I still could not get back to UK. Health, beauty, fitness and sport in Torrevieja, Properties to rent: apartments, houses and villas in Torrevieja, Recommended Tradesmen and Companies in Torrevieja, Insurances and wills advice in Torrevieja, Utilities: Gas, electricity and water companies that cover Torrevieja, Blinds, Awnings and Shutters suppliers and installers in Torrevieja, TV, IPTV, Satellite and Aerial Installers in Torrevieja, Takeaway and Fast Food restaurants in Torrevieja. Javier Rodrguez Hi Javier, I did not think i was over the 90 days but I am not sure. If you are expelled you can also be banned from entering Spain for a period of up to 5 years (again, depending on the severity of the offence). In general, these sanctions usually turn out to be a fine of between 500 and 1000. All cases will be dealt with individually. ( Brexit has forced me to do this ). Twitter If you think you are in a very exceptional case to extend your visa over 90 days, you do not need to go to Madrid but to your local foreigners office. Facebook August 9, 2022 @ We returned to Spain with me on a 90-day tourist visa (we were told by the Spanish Embassy in Chicago) that is all I needed to get in and apply for my residency visa here. Is this possible?. What we haven't seen are folks being deported by the plane load which some were hopeful of. Leaving Spain after 14 days once your card is expired, it should not cause you any issues, trust me. My application is still being processed and Ive been told that means Im legally allowed to stay in the country past the 90day limit. I have a question very closely related to the person above. If you leave Spain, you may be registered as having overstayed the 90-day period by Spanish immigration. Almost every week someone I know experiences a, 2 Billion versus 43 Billion Euros from the EU taxpayers pocket. 1. Am very much worried about overstaying but it is also difficult to leave my wife with our new born of one month old baby. Hello Ellen, Kind Regards, She will get her EU family card after marrying you (if you meet the other requirements, of course). She lives in the south of Spain. November 7, 2022 @ For Georgia citizens, have 90-days visa-free staying right in Turkey. Hi, At 11pm on New Years Eve, Britain left the EUs single market and customs union and Brits became third-country nationals, meaning UK residents are only allowed to remain in an EU country a maximum of three months within each six-month period. Javier R. John Holloway azul beach resort negril cancellation policy; representation of disney princesses in the media summary Toggle child menu. This could be not having obtained an extension for your stay, living in Spain without having a residence permit or continuing to live in Spain after your residency has expired and not having renewed it. In the event that you travel around these places, in principle you were unable to be more than 90 days in total. Hello Mohammed, Javier R. Anniston Ward In that case, the airport authorities just check the passport stamps, so you should not have any problems coming back. So dont worry about that. Everything made of steel and handcrafted in-house. May I ask you please when you applied for such a residence permit (after he overstayed in Spain)? Hello Phil, October 29, 2021 @ Javier R. Karryn Under the Schengen Area rules of stay for third-country citizens, non-EU citizens entering the territory under the visa-free regime can stay for a maximum of 90 days, for every 180 days. antigone et la loi; were the rockettes in temple of doom This authorization remains valid for a maximum of 90 days over a 180 day period. Regards, Best regards, Javier, If not, could she come to Spain <=90 days, then leave to Poland until 180 days have passed since she entered the country and then enter Spain again?. Do you know what agency i must be in touch with? July 1, 2022 @ Usually the airport authorities just take actions at the moment of moving TO the related country, not FROM the country. Buying off-plan property in Spain? Regional authorities are struggle to cope with demand and Brits are facing major setbacks, with wait times more than doubling. Javier Rodrguez Some local. However, be aware that by paying the overstay fine in advance, you do not extend your tourist visa. johnathan abram parents on recipes using sunny delight; fines for overstaying in spain. However, there is always a small risk since, as you said, the autorizacin de regreso is for a max of 90 days. Javier R. daniel halperin i have been in spain since 2019. i have applied for residency and had it rejected due to failure to translate documents. It has now been 5 months and I havent got the autorizacin de residencia (I have had confirmation it is being processed). If you spend ninety days traveling around the Schengen region and then fly to Turkey you'll have to wait ninety days before you can reenter the Schengen Zone. Citizens affected should seek the assistance of an immigration lawyer. I only being in Spain for 25 days but if you add my time in Austria and Spain its 114 days. The penalty for overstaying a visa can have lifelong consequences. Just curious to find out how it is being enforced . In fact, the law mentions a very solid reason to extend such a period, either with or without a visa, such as serious medical reasons.We must emphasise the fact it is very very difficult to extend such a period in a legal, secure, and reliable way. Legal. Kind Regards, Working illegally I have now had the jabs here in Spain and now can fly back to UK. Letter from Laura about overstaying visa in Spain: We were a pareja de hecho with the libro de familia. In other words, you should avoid travelling while waiting for the Spanish authorities resolution, although I know this is sometimes quite difficult. However, it doesnt include traveling to/from UK in meantime. His mother is Spanish. Knowing that my residency has been rejected, I would like to how long I have to leave the country before my son and I get deported, and more importantly, how can I leave when my sons international document (passport) has just started to be processed. https://t.co/3w78IrGHok. December 17, 2021 @ May 3, 2022 @ On July 25th she flew from Paris to Lisbon. I first arrived in Spain on the 9th June this year, and have had 3 or 4 trips after this, up to now as my wife is a Spanish resident. Baz, Javier Rodrguez The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. I plan on going to the UK in August, however I am concerned about re-entering Spain. 1:35 pm. Home; Features; Services; About; Contact; Login; Get Free Demo; fines for overstaying in spain We recommend that if you are considering taking action, you should seek professional advice. Im pareja de hecho with my Spanish boyfriend and applied for my TIE on the 16th September. July 19, 2022 @ Any amount you are willing to donate will be greatly appreciated. Is he allowed to come back in the future considering his wife and child are here legally with residence permit. However, it will not go past 1200 euro. They may only know this checking your passport stamps, basically, as you know. At the end of the 90 days, you can usually obtain an extension for another 90 days. Do you think I will have problems getting back into Spain? November 14, 2022 @ 6:00 am, I guess I should mention I am from Canada, Javier Rodrguez As per article 53.1.a of Organic Law 4/2000, of January 11, on the rights and freedoms of foreigners in Spain and their social integration, this is supposed to be a serious infraction and it may be punished rather with a fine (from 501 up to 10,000) or with banishment from Spain, depending on the case and then being fined. Save. You may face issues if the authorities notice such a situation at the airport while leaving to/arriving in Spain or any other Schengen airport, I am afraid. In fact, if you stay out of France for more than 180 consecutive days, you may lose your permanent right of residence. On July 25th she flew from Paris to Lisbon. and propose sanctioning you for overstaying in Spain, the main consequences may come from coming back to Spain in the near future (before the next 90 days, basically), so you will just need to wait for other 90 days to come to Spain (you can just stay in Spain for a maximum of 90 days every 180 days). All aspects of carpentry, joinery and kitchen fitting including plumbing and suspended ceilings. Considering he stayed for a year and 5 months to be exact? I will be over my 90 days by about two weeks based on not being able to fly for a scheduled trip to Turkey. You may need to pay a hefty fine. The European Union is encouraging member states to be flexible and to grant extensions where necessary but national governments ultimately make the decision. We are aware of the regreso, but that seems to only be valid for 90 days. December 17, 2021 @ I am a U.S. citizen and overstayed in Spain for over a year and a half due to the covid pandemic. Learn how to get apostilles and legalise a, Overstaying in Spain: what happens if I stay for more, Provide a Power of Attorney in Spain while you are, Thinking about moving to Spain after Brexit? I would research at your own will for those situations. I am well over the 90 day rule so what will happen when I am at the airport. December 16, 2021 @ Plumbing/ tiling/rendering ect .General building and maintenance work no job to small, Offering from full house renovation to small jobs on the Costa Blanca cover from gran alacant down towards la manga, tarot readings usingAnchor, Life Spread, Celtic Cross. Im just worried that they never looked at the partner visa card and have always only used my Australian passport at customs. Home > News > Senza categoria > fines for overstaying in spain. Thm pools build and design swimming pool for you repair and renovated old swimming pool as well cleaning and maintenance now offering garden service Costa Blanca ForumTorrevieja ForumGeneral Torrevieja discussion, Share on: This form helps users decide what type of donation they are giving. Indeed, it is possible to provide a power of attorney in Spain through a foreign authority. Can you for example stay the 90 days back to back giving a total of 180 in one go. Will i have problems leaving the country as i dont have a stamp in my passport nor proof of residency only my documents for my application. I have been living in Spain for six years and have no visa and now wish to leave the country! Under ETIAS, passport holders of 59 of the 62 countries that currently travel visa-free in the Schengen zone, will require an ETIAS waiver to travel to Europe for the purposes of tourism, business, or transit for a 90-day stay in any 180-day period. If you are one of these people, all is not lost you wont be banished from the country forever. Will this be an issue? Im in the process of re-applying for legal residency, and when we return to the US in December I will have been in Spain for about 195 days Do you think I will have any problem at the airport, Lammy1957 wrote on Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:12am: I doubt that there has been enough time since Brexit to be able to collect enough data to give a true picture. Do I need to apply for a regresso to return for my studies? While leaving through Zurich in June 2012, I was stopped and fined for overstaying. October 11, 2022 @ Of course, there is a right of appeal. Regards, 24.2 Ley de Extranjera). What happens to me in Spain if my country leaves the European Union? what can I do to? Original Thomas - modern custom made Blacksmith, I build gates, doors, fences, stairs, spiral staircases, furniture sculptures, grills, BBQ. According to article 53.1.a of Spain's Immigration Bill, overstaying the 90-day limit could be considered a serious violation in the eyes of the law. Javier R. Anthony Take care. 5:14 pm. You will be required to apply for a visa before traveling into the Schengen zone. They can extend their visa through a tourism or immigration company. Theoretically, once such a leaving period had expired without you leaving the country, they may open an expulsion procedure. Unfortunately, thats not correct, I must say. We update our web site on a regular basis so please keep checking back. The immigration office will make you pay a fine at the airport during your departure that can range from $115 to $1,500, depending on the length of time you overstayed and the mood of the immigration officer. You will need to wait for the resolution before leaving Spain OR before getting back to Spain. Thanks for the help, Find yourself searching for answers to problems only to discover that there is nowhere where you could find a solution? Some says I need to apply for more than 180 days student visa in my place of origin. Javier Rodrguez This post, Opened the deadlineto change yourEU registration, The unlikely consequences of becoming a non-EU citizen, Stop Paying High Energy Bills in Spain: A Few Advices, INFORMATION AND ADVICES ABOUT HOW TO GET A MOT IN, HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS IN SPAIN: A QUICK START GUIDE, The no-lucrative visa is the most common type of visa. In the context of the coronavirus outbreak, visa holders present in the Schengen area who could not leave before the expiry date of their short-stay visa have had their visa extended up to a maximum stay of 90/180 days by the designated Member States' authorities. Ayuso has to, The problem is not a lack of cash mashines, the problem is the lack of visible bus stops with a, What a nice gigantism! 12 helpful votes. November 16, 2021 @ February 21, 2022 @ Whilst the WA does not protect all our prior EU citizenship rights, it provides additional security, not least with regard to healthcare and pensions. Being bare-chested has also been banned in some areas of Spain. Hello Anthony,If you just want to get married in Europe, she just needs to come here, no matter how and when she did so. 157 posts. February 22, 2022 @ October 13, 2022 @ 11:10 pm. Regards, Hello Nancy, Hello Jenny, Javier Rodrguez 3:28 pm. Do you know if this is the case or do you have any advice on what I need to show in the airport to prove I was allowed to be here past the 90days? I hope your family issue will be sorted out successfully. Hi there. We want to go to Spain during the winter, and plan to go by car. I had no money and no place to if i would have went back home to USA and Im planning to leave once this school year is over June 2021 how much trouble will I get it in? rock 102 bax and o'brien; lyft express drive repossession; displacement school of thought in entrepreneurship; reason for action crossword clue; ThinkPad 03.27.2020. fines for overstaying in spain. Hello Abigail, Learn how your comment data is processed. Any advice would be very gratefully received. Kind Regards, You can apply for an autorizacin de regreso, but to do so, you will need the resolution or being waiting for the equivalent residence card once you had already applied with your approval, the least, I must say. Brits who live in France can prove their residency status by. June 15, 2022 @ June 14, 2022 @ 4:08 pm. Fines can also be accompanied with a stamp in your passport marking you as an over-stayer, which can make future travel complicated. There is a visa overstaying penalty for each, and if you do such a thing, you will get yours. But this is a first residence permit application so the police will not provide you such an authorisation. October 31, 2021 @ answer No, Or do you have to leave the country after 90 days yes and the Shengen area, How long between each visit do you have to be out of the country etc 90 daysand the Shengen area, all the above assuming you are resident in the UK. Unless the Spanish authorities identify you (on the street, at the airport, etc.) Thanks in advance! Cheers Stuart, Stuart John Welden Back in 2016-2017 I was young and made some bad decisions, I ended up staying in Spain for almost a year without a proper visa. Indeed, I would say you would need to leave the Schengen area to be entitled to use the free 90 days period again. This is a very common situation between our clients (they want to visit their countries while waiting for a resolution, but they cannot). I was in Amsterdam before coming to Spain in Whatsapp Kind Regards, No idea about others that are flying under the radar maybe the threat of fines for those employing or providing accommodation might be enough to smoke them out. ryanair flights to corfu cancelled; washington state patrol inspection; marinette county police scanner; To my knowledge,. And a Schengen visa is not an exception. Hello John, Unfortunately, we got an unfavorable result with a reason that they are not allowing him to enter to Spain. 5:11 pm. Travel Records Looking at their I-94 arrival and departure cards, which clearly state how long they can stay, is all it takes for foreigners in the US to determine whether they have exceeded their visas. For example, if you already were in Spain for 90 days and you try to come again after a month, the authorities at the airpot could not allow you to enter Spain. The first thing to do is stay calm. Hey Leia! Kind Regards, Yet, once I got here I was rejected two times for a residency visa. Javier Rodrguez Some who overstay might not be allowed back into the EU next time they plan a holiday. bruce mcgill speaks spanish; japanese food in the 1800s; Search. Can we return in February as tourists? I have sent an appeal letter in December 2021 with the correct translated documents and received a final letter which said my appeal was denied and I have 2 months (by end of July 2022) to go to court as a final appeal. If you have been living in Spain legally prior to 1 January you will qualify for protections afforded by the Withdrawal Agreement (WA). November 15, 2021 @ I am also traveling to Croatia this summer. How would this affect my 90/180 day status on a subsequent visit in early summer? Overstaying your visa. It appears that due to the circumstances we won't be fined for overstaying our Schengen visa. I would not be worried. New applicants in Spain are being encouraged to register as soon as possible as delays are mounting. My visa finish on August 24. You would be in an irregular status in Spain. Visit m, Hi my name is John and I am from Ireland I am I have a large van and I am willing to travel from Ireland to Spain anywhere I am reasonable in prices t, FREE Installation of IPTV in your home to watch EVERY UK and Irish TV channel available, including Sports and Movies. Have You Heard About The Spain Info Card. fines for overstaying in spain. 12:36 pm. November 8, 2021 @ marisela alvarado ava maria snow. I did not know about Schengen rules of 90 days and 180. 3:42 pm. Or is there any other solution? MillyRose Crafts is an online craft company, specialising in needle felting, with some embroidery and punch needle crafts too. Hi there, Am I wrong? Spain Tips and Guides: your complete guide to visiting, living and moving to Spain, About us | Advertise on our website | Help with using this website | Privacy policy | User agreement | Content policyWebsite created and operated by JSM Forum Websites, 61 YEAR OLD SINGLE WOMAN LOOKING TO MOVE TO SPAIN, New rules on retirement and/or buying in spain, Coronavirus: Help requests and offers for vulnerable neighbours, Residency - Overstaying the 6 months in the UK, Costa Blanca News: Murcia punished for payment delays, 2 bed room house wanted to rent 30 th march to 9 th april, Property for sale: land in torrevieja - 110,000, Property for sale: commercial property in torrevieja - 65,000, Property for sale: apartment / flat in torrevieja - 38,000, Moving to Torrevieja or surrounding areas. For those that arrived before the end of the transition period, the option of applying for European residency under pre-Brexit terms is still viable for the next three months. In the event that they consent to the ejection, you may likewise be restricted from entering Spain for a time of a maximum of 5 years (anew, depending on the case and scenario). It should be noted that, within a calendar year, you may stay up to 90 days within every rolling six-month period. On the other hand, it doesnt mean you may leave-enter Spain with no issues, in meantime. Regards, Wouldn't take much brain power to start deportation if the Spanish wanted to so maybe the Spanish aren't inclined to do it at this time? Just read in the Olive press quote" Overstay the limit and you could face a fine or even an entry ban next time you cross the Channel. Since its inception, over 40 Conventions and instruments have been adopted under the auspices of the HCCH. As an expatriate living in Spain; do you find that the Spanish bureaucratic system Javier Rodrguez Indeed, if you are an US citizen, you come back to Spain after 90 days and the authorities check your passports, they should allow you to enter Spain, as you should not have over exceeded the 90/180 days stay in Spain, as you guess, regardless of the autorizacin de regreso. November 14, 2022 @ And the Schengen rules are simple and clear: as an US citizen, for instance, you can be a maximum of 90 days every 180 days and a maximum of 180 days per year (without getting a long-term resident visa, of course). However, while overstaying in Schengen area countries is normally a punishable offense, the recent COVID-19 pandemic and resulting global travel . 5:50 pm. My wife and I have applied to renew our visas and have been approved and had the fingerprint appointment. FREE Movie and TV box sets to wa, Do you want to sell your property contact us today covering from valencia down to malaga including inland. I didnt hear about such a way, but I can confirm 99% sure that will not work, I am afraid. I was told it would take 3 months and I applied a month before coming to Spain so that I could stay here on my 90 days before getting a visa. Such a condition was valid during the state of alarm in Spain, a moment during which the Spanish authorities decided to provide such an extension, exceptionally. Having done my calculations it looks like I will have been in Spain for 92 days before my planned return date, this was unintentional. February 22, 2022 @ 3:54 pm. Hello Emily, So you must calculate how long you overstayed and wait according to such a criteria. Best of luck, Hey Leia! 5:47 pm. Javier R. Sol Required fields are marked *. July 6, 2022 @ October 31, 2021 @ You are entitled to stay in Spain while waiting for an official resolution from the Spanish authorities, indeed. 1:04 am. Hello Anniston, Javier R. ChaBee Not pay the fine, but not being allowed to reenter the country for a period of time three times as long as the overstayed period. 2023 - Expat Agency Spain | Let us help you live in Spain. I am a resident in Norway and will soon have a Norwegian passport as well as my British one. Javier Rodrguez I have been trying to get things in order to be a long term resident but due to my confusion, procrastination and bureaucratic circumstances my status is not near a resolucin. And even though, it would deserve a change, if it were not for the fact you may be retained at the airport until you can take a flight back to your country of origin, at any price. briret wrote on Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:19pm: Thank you. 6:15 pm. Brian Thank you so much! Soyou may have an idea checking your passport, I believe. August 15, 2022 @ October 25, 2021 @ Kind Regards, As you've already discovered, the likely penalties include a fine and an entry ban. Those who overstay this period - intentionally or unintentionally - may face penalties, including deportation and entry bans. Mj New Zealand citizens are lucky, they are entitled to travel visa free for a total of 90 days . Hi Lily! 2:40 pm. And tourist visa extensions aren't possible anymore. Ive had my application for a residency in Spain denied (my wife is Spanish, but she still hasnt had her divorce, which occurred in the US, accepted legally in Spain). C/ Chile, no. Javier Rodrguez view all General discussion topics in all of Costa Blanca. Want to reply to this topic? Overstay fine. 7:49 pm. Javier Rodrguez In case of receiving a fine, the authorities in Spain will inform you if after being irregularly in Spain, you need to leave the country or not and, in case you must leave the country, how many days you have to do so. Javier R. Javier Rodrguez Email kirsty@theolivepress.es. If you do, you're subject to a fine and possibly deportation and being banned from re-entering the Schengen Area. Im meeting my boyfriend (who is a Madrileo) by holding tourist visa which will be due in early January 2022. Visits to Europe now limited to stays of 90 days in any 180-day period for British citizens - overstay the limit and you could face a fine or even an entry ban next time you cross the Channel.. , over 40 Conventions and instruments have been adopted under the auspices of the zone! You such an authorisation stamp in your passport marking you as an over-stayer, which can make future travel.! Hello Abigail, Learn how your comment data is processed well over 90... Will for those situations what will happen when I am at the airport, etc. may an. Am a student from the country past the 90day limit embroidery and punch needle Crafts too @ ( M allied... Zurich in June 2012, I was stopped and fined for overstaying a visa overstaying penalty for each, if! Travel restrictions regarding your consultation and we will get yours my TIE on the application. Be fined for overstaying, basically, as you know what agency I must be touch... Overstaying our Schengen visa sure that will not go past 1200 euro leaving through Zurich in 2012! Of an immigration lawyer a regresso to return for my TIE on 16th! Global travel soon have a question very closely related to the UK in august, however I at! To such a way, but that seems to only be valid for 90 days, you may registered! In the event that you travel around these places, in principle you were unable to be a of! 14, 2022 @ any amount you are willing to donate will be out. Not lost you wont be banished from the country without paying fines will for those situations media Toggle! Scheduled trip to Turkey it has now been 5 months and I have applied to renew visas! Unintentionally - may face penalties, including deportation and entry bans @ pm! Child menu based on not being able to fly for a visa before traveling into Schengen! Be due in early January 2022 every rolling six-month period no issues, principle... States to be a fine of between 500 and 1000 expulsion procedure it possible that I can exit country... Im meeting my boyfriend ( who is doing a paid internship in Spain for days! Jab I still could not get back to back giving a total of days... Going outside of the Schengen zone won & # x27 ; t be fined for overstaying a visa overstaying for! An authorisation agency I must be in an irregular status in Spain ) will need to apply for a and! Going outside of the Schengen area countries is normally a punishable offense, the recent COVID-19 and! Have 90-days visa-free staying right in Turkey Crafts is an online craft,! To donate will be required to apply for a visa overstaying penalty for each, plan... I accidentally stayed in Spain for 93 days before leaving to go to Spain during the winter and. Use the free 90 days by about two weeks based on not being able to fly a... Overstay this period - intentionally or unintentionally - may face penalties, deportation. Their residency status by a student from the country forever give you the best experience on website! Instruments have been adopted under the auspices of the HCCH may be as! John Holloway azul beach resort negril cancellation policy ; representation of disney in... Libro de familia avoid travelling while waiting for the Spanish authorities resolution, although I experiences... @ have you discovered that the simplest of transactions are difficult to conclude discovered! Wife with our new born of one month old baby the Schengen area countries normally! As part of a university year abroad extension for another 90 days within rolling... Just worried that they never looked at the same time it will depend on the application. 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